Sheep vs Wolf 2 - mod GUIDE

 +Gallas


Группа: System Operator
Дата причоединения 25 de de 2011
Посты:2561
Отредактировано29 de de 2017 - 11:04+Gallas
hi agent6_t9,

Cliffs are a bit too random I know, but can't really change much it. If I make some number lower, it barely even form a base in most of time.
I still want to keep the Ai as it's now till league is going, but here you are a non-resign Ai:
Прикреплено:
No res sheep Ai.zip (размер файла: 1.15 KB)
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 shahji


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Дата причоединения 2 de de 2009
Посты:24
Размещено5 de de 2017 - 16:56
Hi Gallas,
Can you reduce the number of cliffs to normal.. Many times with height even 4 -5 LT are enough to kill 2 super wolves, which is not fair

Or maybe cliff should not offer attack bonus..

Rest i believe game is quite balanced now :)
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 Peterpaiter


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Дата причоединения 23 de de 2014
Посты:42
Отредактировано7 de de 2017 - 14:45Peterpaiter
Hi Gallas, i've a series of proposals to give you. I hope i do not forget nothing and, yes, i will repeat some ideas i already said before, because repeating helps sometimes :P

First of all, i would like to point out some changes on wolf side.


1- Hunger game is like the onliest technology no wolf will almost ever do. It costs too much, the most of the time a wolf lose hunting is tofollow and search an animal, not to eat it. Personally, i would make a cheaper tech that gives a bonus when eating big animals only (like 50%, 60% higher eating speed for animals with more then 150 food or more).
The other tech that's quite little used is LOS techs, as they really cost a lot, but i'm more ok with that cost. (thogh could be 200 instead of 250 and 350 instead of 450 wouldn't be a bad thing)

I feel like some rearrangements on wolf civs should be made.

2 - I feel like the flying dog -75% cost should be for watcher civ (if this civ is to be considered as a searching civ...), together with, for it, still speaking about watcher, the +1 los for animals (or at least crocos) should be a team bonus, and not as a civ bonus (after all even bloodbone already have this ability). I would also take in consideration, always for watcher, as second civ bonus a discount on LOS techs of something like 25%-40% (So to keep it anyway at a higher cost then for defender, if u like the idea).

3 - A higher differentiation between the use of survivor (meant as 20% HP) bloodbone (meant as 25 hp per tech) and defender (20 wolf armour) should be found. With few games/tests, it seemed to me like a strong defender is better then a strong survivor (probably stronger then a bloodbone too). This should be not true, could be then survivor/bloodbone are too weak on that side. On my point of view, defender should be stronger up to a medium/early super, when survivor/bloodbone has not yet taken enough upgrades to valorize their HP civs, then, when HP has been maxed, survivor should be stronger then defender, as it took more time to reach that point, and lastly, fully upgraded, bloodbone should be stronger of both, as, after all, it is.

4 - Cointinuing on the discussion of before, about strengh etc, it would be more meaningful if a civ that gains all his strengh more to the end of the game has the eating speed bonus instead of the one with 20% more fixed HP. for this reason i would invert the +30 attack bonus vs animals and the 75% eating speed bonus.

BONUS QUESTION - Is the +30 attack vs animals for player's animals too?

5 - the pup age for devastator costs too much. it kills more or less all the advantages of that civ. But i'll get back on devastator again later. I would personally split that huge cost on more age costs, if you want to keep it so high.

6 - Wrags should get a new life. no one will ever use them, and having civs that somehow should valorize them is an insult :D I personally like their life as gold-eaters. what about if that gold eaten can be used to create traps for sheeps? like explosive gold O.O be careful sheeps, did u see already that gold there or not? hehe.

7 - While a +5 armour as team bonus can be considered as a good team bonus, having a +5 attack as team bonus is quite bad. I would make it or +10 attack bonus or +5%/10% attack speed.

8 - Somehow it should be solved the problem of the blast radius for super/mega wolves in various situations. First of all, it becomes a problem in wolf vs wolf, as it is not possible to kill a running wolf the most of the times when you reach super/mega wolf. a solution to this could be: it is really a must that the wolf, when attacks, stops? couldn't it attack moving? it seems to me more then legit as thing.



Now a serie of little things for game style that are both for sheeps and wolves.


9 - it is not clear, when AOE starts, changing the starting age, who(sheep or wolves) will start with what age. more then all, not all the combinations are taken in consideration.

There are some issues in the game that, by my point of view, limit a lot the strategies usable both by sheeps and wolves. I'll speak about some of them here.

10 - The armour of keeps, lighting towers and mega lighting towers and walls is WAY TOO much. for the buildings, such defenses should not become so strong to be stronger then a line of walls. This makes it a must for wolves to use a civ like devastator to somehow balance the problem, else keeps around the map becomes something that takes ages to be destroyed, or, when attacking, it's harder to take down lighting/mega lighting then walls, and this is non-sense. those defenses(as the keeps) should be weak and covered by walls.

11 - All different heights should be removed from the maps. heights, when sheeps go to define a base, are an advantage/disadvantage only them can define for both teams, and this is totally not fair.

12 - wolf skull's win should not exist. In AOE it exists as they can be taken by both teams, if a team do not totally have any of those, will pay hard that. Of sheep vs wolves, only sheep can control them, making it totally unfair a win for the control of them. Do not point out the "conquest" setting, as it is not a solution, as sheeps win usually for wonder, as so it should remain. Wonder should not be removed as setting.

13 - Crocos should not be killed by so many things. they can be killed by claws, keeps & other defenses, other kind of animals such as (the mostly used) poo thrower. This becomes uncontrollable when good sheeps starts to place keeps everywhere, having claws and poo throwers. Wolves are 2 units that can control these things. sheeps are 6 players managing as many sheeps they want. Personally, i think a good solution could be higher defense of crocos vs Keeps and other animals apart claw fishes. What, also, about a new kind of unit for wolves that hunt sheep's predators and claws? (not able to kill trading fishes nor eating fishes)

here's my proposal for sheeps.

14 - First of all, i propose the TCs with stronger arrows, so that a TC with a garrisoned sheep can kill a young wolf, 2 TC with garrisoned sheeps can kill an elder one. Tc should be just a first kind of defense at the start of the game, so they should be of any use later in game.

15 - weaker predator units for reduced cost. All upgrades to make them usable are, by my point of view, a crazy thing. Make them also, if possible, be moovable running all together.

16 - a new kind of moovable defense, that occupies a lot of space, but that can be moved between walls (could be with 4 wall spaces needed to make it pass, so 2 gates). This kind of defense should be a first step to change totally the way bases are designed. It should make it possible to design defenses on more levels (not only walls - defenses behind them, but walls, some defenses, then other walls

17 - give the possibilty to have OR long range defenses with lower attack or shorter range defenses with higher attack.

18 - Some kind of trap that can be placed into the base? (stuff that occupies too much space to be placed between walls/defenses could be, could be it could have some kind of rule of distance from them, so that special spots for it must be created, and it is not just placed casually somewhere). another option would an invisible predator (that's possible to have it only when they've, for example, mega lighting or other stuff that makes it usable only at the end of the game) that would give issues to not careful wolves? Traps could be somehow exploited by wrags too, that could have a special kind of sight. this would also help still wrags to gain a new life.

19 - Limited number of defenses sheeps can build. beeing a sheep should be a team game with every sheep working hard on defenses, with all of them building them etc, by my point of view. Else i would increase the cost of passing material from one sheep to the other.



I feel like i probably forgot to write some of the ideas i had, when they'll come back to my mind, i'll write them down.


Unclussified things i forgot:

20 - explosive sheeps are a great idea, but a new life should be found for them. wolves should be more able to defend from them, and they should not look THE SAME as normal sheeps.

21 - a market for wolves too, to exchange between them too resources

22 - a little faster wolves. a +5% running speed for all wolves would be a nice thing i would really appreciate.


P.s. I would like a post answer by points (
1-
2-
etc)
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 +Gallas


Группа: System Operator
Дата причоединения 25 de de 2011
Посты:2561
Отредактировано7 de de 2017 - 15:21+Gallas
That's a huge wall of text, but let's see:

1. I have no problem with Hunger tech reworking/replacing, LoS techs are no going to change now.

2. I don't want to move Flying dog -75% to Watcher and Watcher's civ bonus won't be team, forget that. We already have a los tech decrease bonus at Defender.

3. I want multiple chooses to "die later" as now you can choose between armor, fix hp and flexible hp. It's situational which the best for that moment, no "best of all" option.

4. Civ bonus "trading" is not a thing what I want to put into this game. Too complex and mater of time and it will be just a step by step thing. Some civ good at begin, other later. You decide how you wanna play.
The +30 vs animals are for gaia, sorry for misleading.

5. Devastator is fine. You get the best start from all Wolf civ, but as return you stuck at first age much longer. It's fair. The point is not the cost, the point on make it stay longer at first civ locking out from some important tech.

6. Wargs are either a must have key to win, or never used. Hard to find the middle, but the gold trap idea is fun, just cannot be done to make not possible to see it's fake.

7. Maybe, but I want to keep a civ with a good team or good civ bonus.

8. This thing annoys me too, but not the blast give the problem, it's the range. Sadly don't know solution for it, just by removing the range fully... or maybe... if I try give projectile to super/mega Wolf, but it may change the attack speed and some behaves, no idea, I need lot of test for this and can't promise it will work.

9. There are many possible strategies, just not all that safe as what people using the most (obv why).

10. Armors are intended to be that high. Upgrade attack too not just armor, get Yurt bonus and maybe civ for building dmg too. Also keep in mind, the +10% hp for buildings gives armor too if Sheep enough smart to research it.

11. 11, no that will stay as part of being a random map.

12. I can't just turn off skull win, unless it's conquest, or simple.. no skulls on map.

13. Crocks are weak, but cheap extra explorer + water control. I won't make it better, maybe some extra pierce armor, but that's all.

14. Listed at next possible update list. Will see what can work.

15. Run skill not works when grouped, no idea why. Costs will stay for predators.

16. Sounds fun, but don't think so could work. Just take Boar maze 1 as example how it's buggy.

17. And how? I like the idea, but tell me how.

18. Had this idea back in SvsW1, never worked well (only explosive sheep).

19. Your limit is the population limit. I can make it fair for 75 pop, then hosts will switch to 200. I make it for 200, they switch to 1000. Be a good host, and set fair number!

20. You can outsmart the explosive sheep, not once wasted like 10 by a good Wolf, you can do it^^

21. Not much options I have with this, but I'll try something that's sure.

22. Nope


Ty for feedback :)
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 Peterpaiter


Группа: стандартный аккаунт
Дата причоединения 23 de de 2014
Посты:42
Размещено7 de de 2017 - 15:07
1- OK
2- OK :'( (at least the sad face for the croco LOS)
3 - I perfectly agree with you about that, I just feel like some arrangements should be made so that HP improvements are sometimes better then armour improvements, as, for now, it seems to me that armour's always better.
4 - i've not understood. my point 4 is not about trading. about animals... that's sad but ok :D
5 - I disagree. it's a fake fast start. I would prefer it to have some few more freedom.
6 - some more speed on them and other little changes would not become a gamechanger on them, but something still interesting. about traps, that's sad! because they would be of some kind of player? what if all gold is something like of "gaia"? could that solve the issue?
7 - more or less OK.
8 - yes, super/mega are ranged units, they should have some kind of "projectile". I always felt this :S.
About removing hte range, I would just do it as a free tech that people can use or not. the range should be a bonus on those wolves that's sad if it's just lost or if they've to pay to remove it.
9 - My point 9 is not about strategies or other stuff :D it's just about the lobby.
10 - the problem is the timing. I know the importance to upgrade armour, attack etc, but there must be some kind of equal timing between when i do that and when they get strong keeps. Do not forget that when i speak about lighting/mega i'm speaking about defenses into the base, at the last fase of the game, with wolves with probably maxed both attack and defense. For these reasons, I keep my idea anyway that keeps etc should be buildings defended by walls or other stuff. Upgrades such as armour, attack etc during the early/middle fases of the game should be pushed by the use of animals or other things.
11 - it's not just me saying so, everyone, even sheeps says so. at least that should not be a hard scripting thing and i could do it too on a new random map to be used.
12 - i've 2 solutions: 1) no skulls 2) a skull is somehow placed in an unreachable place
13 - crocos are not cheap, are not really usable as explorers, and the quantity of sheeps and players in a map makes them sometimes impossible to be used (good sheeps vs good wolves makes it impossible for wolves). you said that trading should be a risk, not a must something that sheeps should think about etc. make it true, make the fight over water something harder on their side too. what about if keeps do have, at least, to target the crocos to kill them and they do not have auto target?
14 - i do not like, personally, the not garrisson attack or the penetrating the armour. this would make them do some damadge to super/mega wolves when they should not.
15 - Ok about run skills, i disagree about costs. no one uses predators because of that. costs and strengh should be reworked. if they're used, they're a hell, impossible to be managed often, else they're never used. make them more usable and not a hell as they're now.
16 - i was thinking about something like a Trebuchet. isn't that possible to be present?
17 - Could be just making a new unit called short lighting or giving a new life to wolf killers, idk. it doesn't have for sure to be possible to switch from one to the other thing(or, to make it possible, what about a technology or something like that, is that possible?
18 - Ok. what about a something of animal that can just stay near the wonder or anyway into the base somehow?
19 - i perfectly agree with you about pop limits!!!
20 - if a group of explosive sheeps are sent togehter, or if you mix up real sheeps with explosive sheeps it's not a funny/good thing.
21 - OK
22 - OK

thanks for the answers :D
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 +Gallas


Группа: System Operator
Дата причоединения 25 de de 2011
Посты:2561
Отредактировано7 de de 2017 - 15:27+Gallas
Fine, I'll make elevations less.
About crocks, it's about the class to make it not auto-targeted, but then Crock also won't auto target.
Yes the idea was like a treb, but it's not that simple as it sounds. Also a custom-edited treb can randomly make a crash, I guess nobody want that risk.
Do you really want me to rework the whole lightning tower concept ;sly I don't want any new radical gameplay changes if you not mind. Just follow the planed version log at mod's page to see what will going to happen (if will happen).

I'll try to focus on small fixes, rather than giving a new meta or randomly made gameplay switches.
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 Peterpaiter


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Отредактировано7 de de 2017 - 17:50Peterpaiter
what about using the graph of the treb? Do you feel like this could add issues? After all, the graph of the treb is nice by my point of view for sheeps too, it's made of wood for the most :D
the thing is, i would like to permit to make defenses for sheeps on different levels, like it was for castles. there was a first line of defenses, if that was falling, units could get back to an inner lline of defenses, up to the castle. If defenses, in SVW are only static, this is not a possibility. people will always put all the defenses on the outside. but if somehow these defenses could gain somehow a limited kind of "power" or if these defenses could be moved, more complex base designs could be though, making the game more interesting


+Gallas wrote:
Do you really want me to rework the whole lightning tower concept ;sly

yea, why not? ;goatee
(half joking :P)

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 agent6_t9


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Дата причоединения 9 de de 2009
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Размещено9 de de 2017 - 02:24
Mr Gallas
i understand cliffs are needed for balance. Thank you for no resign sheeps:)... will help me heaps:)

agent
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 Peterpaiter


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Дата причоединения 23 de de 2014
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Размещено9 de de 2017 - 13:44
4192 slp to 2154
what does this mean?

will you think about the other things you've no more answered to be about? there's also still the point 4 and 9 you had not answered but you answered to other things
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 +Gallas


Группа: System Operator
Дата причоединения 25 de de 2011
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Размещено9 de de 2017 - 14:50
Just a technical thingy with two id. In past I used just a paper for changelogs, but now I post it to make people assume what will come next. It may contains some stuffs too what normally not understandable for everyone, but I wanna keep just one list for changes. Not mind too much about it, but if you really want to know...
4192 id is for the 25% damaged wall, but this id is in original game too. I switched lot of ids to nonused-ones, because some visual mods may overwrite them, which ruin game-experience, but forgot this one.

If I not answered to something not means I not read it, I just have nothing to say about it.
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 Lucif3r1


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Дата причоединения 3 de de 2017
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Размещено10 de de 2017 - 04:58
Movement Speed Techs should also increase Wrags Speed or there should be Tech to increase wrag speed :) otherwise they useless and too slow :)
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 Peterpaiter


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Размещено10 de de 2017 - 11:40
A couple of new things Gallas:
I think crocos should have a bonus attack for rifts, doing always at least 25-50 damadge, and not 1 damadge even when the armour of buildings is increased.

I think crocos should be able to kill the birds in 1 hit. Sheeps often send birds near yurt in the rivers. they can be attacked only by the crocos, but then they move. A wolf should pass from a river side to the other, and it's not an option.

Last thing: I think walls should take more time to get as strong as they can get. This is not SvW1 where walls could be placed only in limited spots, here sheeps can wall everything. If you do not take devastator (and i've already told you about this, but u do not listen about this kind of things...) Having too strong walls for every river side or other things even when wolves are only vet makes things not fair.
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 +Gallas


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Дата причоединения 25 de de 2011
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Размещено10 de de 2017 - 12:37
1 damage on Raft? What?

No I don't like that idea with crock.

Walling all over the map is a risky move and if wolf is not bad, then you end as a food easily. But I have to agree on that, if you are focusing on wall upgrade only, you can have max upgrade too fast.
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 [MM]Mallow_


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Дата причоединения 19 de de 2016
Посты:37
Отредактировано10 de de 2017 - 16:33[MM]Mallow_
please consider these changes
why not make sheep price default 1k and sheep los default without eagle watch..and give better flexibility to other civs.
2.2.7 -
1) aegisbringer getting free free wolf killer and chemistry(indivitual bonus) and research speed 50%less time(team bonus)

2) merchant free reed upgrade (indivitual bonus) 10% extra speed for fishes(team bonus)

3) eagle watch getting cheaper spies for like 40%less(team bonus) and free tribute(+same arrows bonus as indivitual)

4) destroyer getting +15ap for all towers (indivitual bonus) (makes it necessary to use iron guard for early attack with vet). +5ap for all towers (team bounus)

5) gatherer getting 33% extra gold generation with skull(team bonus)? and -500 stone for mlt(individual bonus)

6) general (same individual bonus)wall building speed make it default pls and +1 range for keeps(team bonus)

7) w-bersekr people wont use since survivour is much better when it comes to eating speed
will you be able to give it cheaper t o o t h as team bonus? like -50%.

8 ) w-bloobone-become slightly weaker with these changes so if u can reduce mega wolf price or bloodbone to 2750 will be fair i think

9) since sheeps are strong with all these upgrade is it possible to add and extra fur for wolfs? and slight reduction in wolf creation speed

10) tc attack without garrison? or tc small attack but armor penetrating so can work?
if it cant damage croc there is no use..wolf will eat it any way. infact it can help wolf find sheep in early game sometimes.

11) wolf killer should be back somehow (need ideas)
give it 100 ap for 10k gold and 2x attack speed for another 10k gold(since it is cheaper than mlt and more pop people go for it since it can kill mega wolfs but increase pop requirement may be and also have lesser range than mlt(so wolf will get some advantage).

12) lt and mlt reduced attack speed? (making it slow, while wk fast but weaker attack)
no please

13) non resign ai after league
this is good as it is

14) hunger tech rework or making it cheaper
200 food is fine

15) watcher +5 for all unit, not just for wolf
no much difference, if you can give it cheap armour it will be nic

16) yurt food buying for wolf
no needed for buying we need to mine gold is that what u mean?

17) less elevation
nice

18) wall upgrade delaying?
no please

19) crock some extra dmg vs buildings (make sure not vs claw) maybe to bird too
cool

Thanks
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 +Gallas


Группа: System Operator
Дата причоединения 25 de de 2011
Посты:2561
Размещено10 de de 2017 - 15:42
Mallow_ You don't have to shout (using caps), but you have there some nice idea what I will consider when will be at civ part. There is only one bad thing: technology related team bonuses are NOT working on AoC. The reason not known, only aoak fixed it, but any previous patch ignores team bonuses if it's modify techs.


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