Sheep vs Wolf 2 - mod GUIDE

 +Gallas


Группа: System Operator
Дата причоединения 25 de de 2011
Посты:2536
Отредактировано26 de de 2017 - 19:55+Gallas
You just have to find 50 food as Cub, that's not that hars and Young still can run. TC attack bonus will just prevent some rush, but my aim was overall map controlling by wolf to be less at begin, which is done now, and if you want stronger young vs animals take the right civ for it :)

Devastator had 2 option: 2x Pup age but Elder or 4x Pup but Greater. The civ gives special gameplay compared to others and I want to keep as this, instead of some random bonuses. I'm happy how is it now.

I made crocks too general units what I regretted. You still can make it +1 civ +1 team bonus for Los and +20% faster, but now it's a civ privilege.

Wargs are fine. If you still can't see the way how/when use it, then it's not my fault :S

Techs cannot be team bonus sadly so I can't make Defender Cave los to that. Also you forgot mention, it gives Los techs 75% cheaper too.

Yes it need team work if playing with predator animals, because it helps other sheep players save time, also you always can sling for faster and stronger offensive play.

Reducing total game length not worked. It just made more chaos and balance jumping, so I won't risk this anymore with random ideas. About 1 hour I agree, but for blood/cba games. This is not the only map which can be 2-3 hour long and nobody complain about it. If you enjoy your game, you won't bother.

Hunger cost food so I don't know where you pointing now. And Wargs gold destroying should not be that fast, it still can remove thousands of gold from map.


Overall, I'm fine with current update and not plan any drastic change now.
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 Peterpaiter


Группа: стандартный аккаунт
Дата причоединения 23 de de 2014
Посты:42
Отредактировано26 de de 2017 - 19:44Peterpaiter
+Gallas wrote:
You just have to find 50 food as Cub, that's not that hars and Young still can run. TC attack bonus will just prevent some rush, but my aim was overall map controlling by wolf to be less at begin, which is done now, and if you want stronger young vs animals take the right civ for it :)

Devastator had 2 option: 2x Pup age but Elder or 4x Pup but Greater. The civ gives special gameplay compared to others and I want to keep as this, instead of some random bonuses. I'm happy how is it now.

I made crocks too general units what I regretted. You still can make it +1 civ +1 team bonus for Los and +20% faster, but now it's a civ privilege.

Wargs are fine. If you still can't see the way how/when use it, then it's not my fault :S

Techs cannot be team bonus sadly so I can't make Defender Cave los to that. Also you forgot mention, it gives Los techs 75% cheaper too.

Yes it need team work if playing with predator animals, because it helps other sheep players save time, also you always can sling for faster and stronger offensive play.

Reducing total game length not worked. It just made more chaos and balance jumping, so I won't risk this anymore with random ideas. About 1 hour I agree, but for blood/cba games. This is not the only map which can be 2-3 hour long and nobody complain about it. If you enjoy your game, you won't bother.

Hunger cost gold so I don't know where you pointing now. And Wargs gold destroying should not be that fast, it still can remove thousands of gold from map.


Overall, I'm fine with current update and not plan any drastic change now.


it's not just about beeing able to run, but about if you can find, follow and kill a deer, a horse, a boar. understood the overal control... and i just partially agree on it. i can get the idea behind it, but i would have other ideas to make it possible.

I disagree on devastator. as i told you, i find it should gain a higher cost with time, not all together at the start. this cost could even be higher then now, but in pieces, not all in 1 hit.

about crocos, those were already civ privileges before.

about wrags, it's not if i can't see a good way to use them, as i'm already successful player, so me not using them means they're useless. If i was nto successful and i had to look for new strategies using them more, i could have agreed.

Ok about cave los. i didn't forgot the other part, i just considered it a separate thing.

about predator animals, for me it should not be a sling thing to make it a team job, but a team job making them.

About timing, the thing is easy: when u see unbalance, instead of making the strong team weaker, you make the weaker team stronger :D

hunger costs food by what i know. you do it with the wolf eating food, but i could be wrong.




I still disagree with your game development sometimes anyway, i feel like you tend too much to define a game path instead of giving more freedom to different strategies to be developed. When you add a strategy, it's too much defined into too strong limits.
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 +Gallas


Группа: System Operator
Дата причоединения 25 de de 2011
Посты:2536
Размещено26 de de 2017 - 19:54
Hops, made a typo, fixed.
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 Peterpaiter


Группа: стандартный аккаунт
Дата причоединения 23 de de 2014
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Отредактировано26 de de 2017 - 21:11Peterpaiter
Yes, hunger costs food. make it costs gold, like 2k gold, 3k gold, idk
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 +Gallas


Группа: System Operator
Дата причоединения 25 de de 2011
Посты:2536
Размещено26 de de 2017 - 21:18
Well, that's kinda fun idea, but don't wanna force wargs by this. Will reconsider if want to rework hunger tech.
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 Peterpaiter


Группа: стандартный аккаунт
Дата причоединения 23 de de 2014
Посты:42
Отредактировано5 de de 2017 - 11:45Peterpaiter
+Gallas wrote:
Well, that's kinda fun idea, but don't wanna force wargs by this. Will reconsider if want to rework hunger tech.
people do not already do hunger tech, so you're not forcing it. it's just a way to give some kind of meaning to wrags.


New inputs for you:

1a - I think you should think about putting together a team to manage sheep vs wolf. it's a good game, but if u would like it to become something more, u can't manage it all alone. too many things to be done, and you should learn to delegate stuff here and there. people helping you with ideas, with development, with gameplay analysis etc would be a great thing both for you and for the game.

1b - it's not clear in the lobby what team would start with "adult" "pup" etc when those settings are used (for example what it means adult-puberty ?)

1c - some kind of stronger civs to be used when sheeps or wolves are lacking of team players. so no need to fill teams with AIs to get team bonuses, that, sometimes (mostly for wolves) would not give anyway the same effect.

1d - why at the end doesn't appear when wolves reached the various ages/levels? it was a good thing of svw1 to understand how the game had gone

2 - new inputs for sheeps:

2a - Make explosive sheeps cost less, but they've to attack the wolf to explode (after all, the explosive should be triggered, else it won't explode...), if the wolf attack them, they do not explode, but they give food (the other option is that every sheep would become an explosive sheep like this, but, in both cases, this is to be defined well. how to define when the sheep's attackign the wolf and not the wolf attacking the sheep? still i think this is a nice thing.)

2b - I say it again, make animals weaker but cost less at the same time. people do not use them coz they cost too much. and still, make it possibile to make multiple animals run together.

2c - the TC when garrisoned should have stronger arrows

2d - the time of the wonder changes based on the gaming time. the more the game time is high, the more the wonder will last. this would be a nice thing together with sheeps stronger (but not OP) on earlier levels of the game

2f - population options in lobby changed, instead of 75-100-125-150-200 1000, i would make more steps near to the usual values used. (90, 100, 110, 120, 130, 140, 150 for example)

I really think sheeps would get stronger on the initial part of the game...


3 - inputs for wolves:

3a - the issue with the cave that makes it impossible to delete an update started is that the cave can't lose HP? then indicate outside of the cave the quantity of lives, for example put rocks outside to indicate it or "outposts" that somehow indicate the lives

3b - some kind of market for wolves too to pass resources each other

3c - what about if a wish of the yurt is to somehow convert gold in food? the convertion rate must be thought.

3d - cheaper dogs

3e - stronger young wolf. it can't hunt if not deers and can't see lot of fishes on the river sides. i would also reduce to 40 food the cub upgrade. in a game like this, where timing is a key thing, where often a couple of minutes makes the difference, having the 2 first wolf levels that so much deepnds on luck, that can take 3 min as 15, makes all luck variable.

3f - is it possible to improve the animal's distribution?





p.s.
claws are too strong and costs too little. a croco to a wolf costs 100, having MAX around 12k food in a full game. claws costs, what, 200? with sheeps having in a game even 40k gold or more. considering 2 wolves and 6 sheeps, it means a total of 24k(max, when lucky) vs 240k and still, claws can kill easily a croco.

Plus:
for claws/sheeps it's easy to find crocos (they have great LOS with all animals, towers, outposts)
sheeps has also towers, sheeps, animals to kill crocos (for example the poo throwers)


you can't balance the game to work with pro wolves and normal sheeps, that is no balance, will result in bad balance every time there's balance between skills of wolves and sheeps
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 +Gallas


Группа: System Operator
Дата причоединения 25 de de 2011
Посты:2536
Отредактировано6 de de 2017 - 18:02+Gallas
The game is not that complex to need a team, few kind words are more than enough, since I can't be in every game and see every minutes.
Ai perhaps in future gets more usage if sbody able to script an active one.
About ages, achievements not showing wolf age ups, because those are separated technologies, while in svsw1 it was by triggers.

I'm fine with animals, but may few civ benefits more on them. Specially Aegis and Dest what I want to change, without touching others.
TC indeed need to get some usage with arrows or simply removed if cannot do. Garrisoned arrows depends on garrisoned unit's attack and the buildings attack too. in SvsW TC have worse in this, since sheep do nothing, while TC have kinda big number.
Can't edit wonder time. sorry. Even Atheism cannot be modified too, just used.
Pop is patch-related thing, but it's host duty set fair number, or can set high/low, depend how want to affect the game.

I always got asked by Wolf Cave, but seems like I have to again explain. Cave is the Dock, so can get second page. No other alternative (that's why can't use trade fishes direct send to other reeds). The health is not the problem, the problem is being totally NOT attackable and ignoring all kind of blast, while still can research tech+make units+garrison+heal. This is the only negative effect on this and hidden more, what I don't want to explain and this is far less, than what I had during making this complex work. This is the best I can make. Deal with it.
I still don't want usage for gold by wolf. Same with food for sheep. Making gold as a source for Wolf leveling is not what I want.
Young Wolf is supposed to be weak and 'm fine with it.
Animals are distributing by themselves. I don't need to affect on it luckily. The random moving do all the great magic.
Claw-crock ratio is okay now. I seen it good and bad from both view and happy how is it now. Keep in mind all defending trade or even trading is a risk to feed wolf. It can backfire badly.

Agree with last line. I will never balance well this game for good sheep vs bad wolf, or bad wolf vs good sheep, if I aim it for be balanced for good sheep vs good wolf / bad sheep vs bad wolf, or reverse.
Keep it fun and no too serious, and everything will be better :)

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 Peterpaiter


Группа: стандартный аккаунт
Дата причоединения 23 de de 2014
Посты:42
Отредактировано7 de de 2017 - 12:37Peterpaiter
+Gallas wrote:
The game is not that complex to need a team, few kind words are more than enough, since I can't be in every game and see every minutes.
Ai perhaps in future gets more usage if sbody able to script an active one.
About ages, achievements not showing wolf age ups, because those are separated technologies, while in svsw1 it was by triggers.

I'm fine with animals, but may few civ benefits more on them. Specially Aegis and Dest what I want to change, without touching others.
TC indeed need to get some usage with arrows or simply removed if cannot do. Garrisoned arrows depends on garrisoned unit's attack and the buildings attack too. in SvsW TC have worse in this, since sheep do nothing, while TC have kinda big number.
Can't edit wonder time. sorry. Even Atheism cannot be modified too, just used.
Pop is patch-related thing, but it's host duty set fair number, or can set high/low, depend how want to affect the game.

I always got asked by Wolf Cave, but seems like I have to again explain. Cave is the Dock, so can get second page. No other alternative (that's why can't use trade fishes direct send to other reeds). The health is not the problem, the problem is being totally NOT attackable and ignoring all kind of blast, while still can research tech+make units+garrison+heal. This is the only negative effect on this and hidden more, what I don't want to explain and this is far less, than what I had during making this complex work. This is the best I can make. Deal with it.
I still don't want usage for gold by wolf. Same with food for sheep. Making gold as a source for Wolf leveling is not what I want.
Young Wolf is supposed to be weak and 'm fine with it.
Animals are distributing by themselves. I don't need to affect on it luckily. The random moving do all the great magic.
Claw-crock ratio is okay now. I seen it good and bad from both view and happy how is it now. Keep in mind all defending trade or even trading is a risk to feed wolf. It can backfire badly.

Agree with last line. I will never balance well this game for good sheep vs bad wolf, or bad wolf vs good sheep, if I aim it for be balanced for good sheep vs good wolf / bad sheep vs bad wolf, or reverse.
Keep it fun and no too serious, and everything will be better :)


I agree about the first part, you can't be in every game etc, and for this reason i feel like you are somehow not having a clear idea about how the gameplay evolves, making then changes that sometimes makes more underpowered things already underpowered or overpowered things already overpowered. for this reason i feel like you need to put together something like a team or other stuff to help you in the management of the game. (it's not just me thinking some aspects of sheeps are OP, or sheps in general are OP. if u want, i would CHAT more about it, but i do not love to every time just write long posts)

for the cave, why don't you manage separately cave and upgrade building? could be 2 separate upgrade buildings.


what about a bigger LOS for flying dog? ATM flying dog has a very small LOS considering the size of map is usually used.

Would you increase the wolf skulls win as number of years? it's meaningless it has the same time of wonder. with wonder wolves gets notified before, has some kind of LOS of the situation. with wolf skulls they can't take some on their own (this is what happens in AOE and that's why they lack of stuff like LOS, preparation time etc).
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 Peterpaiter


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Дата причоединения 23 de de 2014
Посты:42
Размещено7 de de 2017 - 15:59
another solution for crocos (probably even more correct) could be to make them not killable by towers. after all, if crocos are to kill water units and u want water units(claws) to fight them, let them be fought with claws and not keep towers
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 agent6_t9


Группа: стандартный аккаунт
Дата причоединения 9 de de 2009
Посты:74
Размещено10 de de 2017 - 16:12
hi all brother wolves;
as rookie, i try to practice vs computer ai to get speed training.... now i see all ai's resign (?)... never before has any ai resigned. I have been told it is because of "ratings"... i have a few questions now, i'm not about changing the world for the sake of change... stability of known parameters always a far better outcome. anyway, my questions;
1/ why all the flutter of recent changes / counter-changes / weekly updates (?)
2/why change what was stable until recently, including now, at all (?)
3/how do i practice vs comp ai, unrated, when they resign (( NEVER SEEN THIS BEFORE !!!.. is this yet another unnecessary change ))
4/is it possible to practice öffline vs comp ai if ratings interfere with online unrated practice (?)... if so, how (?)
my closing statement... i'm relatively new / rookie... i know not easy to be wolf however prepared to put in effort albeit also not being full time player, having parameter changes & no facility to practice vs comp ai makes things a lot more difficult than they should be. I thank the SVW people... all who are friendly & happy to help anytime :)
Cheers:)
agent
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 +Gallas


Группа: System Operator
Дата причоединения 25 de de 2011
Посты:2536
Отредактировано10 de de 2017 - 21:44+Gallas
hi agent6_t9,

Ai resign by time, because it could make endless match if it's a wolf, and as unrated may people not bother about it, but when rated it's not want should happen. If you want to use an Ai which not give up, then I suggest get immobile Ai, which won't do anything.
1. Because this mod not is abandoned.
2. There is no perfect map/mod and I try to keep it up with new ideas or balance features, which may make it easier/harder for sheep/wolf.
3/4. Just read up. I suggest also spec games and rewatch recs to be better, but ofc self made new tactics may can work also, if you are brave enough :P
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 Peterpaiter


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Дата причоединения 23 de de 2014
Посты:42
Размещено10 de de 2017 - 21:58
I've got a good idea for you gallas! it's about Mega lighting towers, lighting towers and wolf killers.
People tends too much to forget what's the goal of playing sheep, something like a team game where all should do part of the defences etc, and not just "the onliest guy with stronger defences". more then all, the power needed for lighting towers and mega lighting towers is high, each player can't manage too much lighting power on it's own. so my solution is this: every player has a max number of lighting towers /mega lighting towers they can build. after that number (it can be 5, 8, 10) they can only build other defences, so wolf killers, keeps, etc.
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 +Gallas


Группа: System Operator
Дата причоединения 25 de de 2011
Посты:2536
Размещено10 de de 2017 - 22:41
I've got a good idea for you gallas! it's about Mega lighting towers, lighting towers and wolf killers.
People tends too much to forget what's the goal of playing sheep, something like a team game where all should do part of the defences etc, and not just "the onliest guy with stronger defences". more then all, the power needed for lighting towers and mega lighting towers is high, each player can't manage too much lighting power on it's own. so my solution is this: every player has a max number of lighting towers /mega lighting towers they can build. after that number (it can be 5, 8, 10) they can only build other defences, so wolf killers, keeps, etc.
This can be both good and bad idea, and afraid will end drama in game. Will work greatly with good people who actually work as team not just a herd, but with worse, it will end just hate.
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 agent6_t9


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Дата причоединения 9 de de 2009
Посты:74
Размещено10 de de 2017 - 23:16
hi brother wolves :P
my personal opinions/rants/whatever are as follows;
1/ i need facility to train without affecting ally wolf.... ie: solo vs comp ai either online or offline.... before yet another ((without consultation with actual players)) we had this available... online...

mr GALLAS, the whole idea of solo training is to improve so i can be competitive vs pros... yes i do have brother wolves' help & advice.... being shift worker & my mentors playing [pro] level games they have great patience helping with advice, however i do not want to spoil pro players' games... your previous comments regarding spec games do not compute.... hours of training & game time is required now... if i have offline option vs comp/ai that would be OK as well

2/we get updates/changes/?????????????? imposed without consultation or any consideration of how it may affect game play, training, or rookies ((myself))... might be OK if changes were made with consideration of players affected?

cheers:)
agent;)
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 agent6_t9


Группа: стандартный аккаунт
Дата причоединения 9 de de 2009
Посты:74
Размещено10 de de 2017 - 23:27
hi brother wolves :)
my apology for inadvertent duplicate post:)

cheers:)

agent:)



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