Sheep vs Wolf 2 - mod GUIDE

 +Gallas


Группа: System Operator
Дата причоединения 25 de de 2011
Посты:2422
Размещено12 de de 2017 - 16:54
Hi shahji,

1. I cannot control how the script generates the random map. If sbody can do it, I will gladly implement those lines.
2. I always wanted gate, just was not able to make it work. Do you know wolf can pass it too if left open? Perhaps I'll make gate more fragile compared to walls, so it won't function as a real wall and should be think twice if worth that weak point or not.
3. As always, it depends on civs and RNG. I think current upgrading is okish. Also don't want again waste hours to make it working fine so no, I won't change it again. Max prices, but not planed that too.
4. Super is same, Mega went up from 60 to 70 sec. May will change this.
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 Peterpaiter


Группа: стандартный аккаунт
Дата причоединения 23 de de 2014
Посты:42
Отредактировано17 de de 2017 - 21:49Peterpaiter
Hi Gallas, i've some new proposals and requests for you:

1 - I do not think that wolf not running has any kind of meaning. Not in general, and not at the start.
speaking about the start, even more now that maps are random and no more defined as in svw1.
Before it was a way to slow down the wolf for a while, while it was playing, but now depends on the luck to find fast water. Do you want to keep it not running for a while? just set the time of a first upgrade(i do not get what's the need of birth wolf too) high enough to cover the time needed to search water. for example the wolves starts with 100 food, this ugrade costs 100 food and lasts 30, 40 sec or whatever. same thing for eating speed. I do not get the need to have an upgrade of it. they can't be considered optional upgrades, they're a must to start playing, so i would remove them.

2 - I discovered there's a setting inside the game to define the age to start from, both for wolves and for sheeps.
That's a nice idea, but i think, as for wolves it's important the level of the wolf too, that all wolf levels could be taken to ages too. this would have some vantages: it would be shown into the game how much time is needed to upgrade the wolf, it would let the players define to start the game with "elder wolf" and not just "puberty age".

3 - I would appreciate to have more informations about things out of the game. from basic stuff that could be found into the game as how much is the wrag HP? to other stuff we've no info about, for example:
How much is the upgrade time? How much is the eating speed for the various wolf levels? how much is the running speed for the various wolves, sheeps, animals? how much is the armour of the various things? what is the healing rate of the cave? what is the blast of wolves?
this would be very important also for things like: when will it be good to upgrade the attack speed?(Of which, personally, i find very low the first upgrade of only 5% for the cost of 60 food, is an upgrade people will only do when wolves are v strong for now).

4 - I think wolves are Very underpowered atm and their strategy it's still very defined by the game and by the luck. If in sheep vs wolf 1 wolves could more or less define how much time to spend in searching and how much in hunting, this is no more really possible in sheep vs wolves 2.
There are a lot of animals around, many many more then in SvW1, but if you just hunt, you will be always too slow, even if you take civs that makes you eat very fast.
Lot of times, when i wolf, i prefer to not eat and just look for sheeps, as the time needed to eat sheep's buildings etc is so lower compared to the so slow eating speed of animals. Even big animals are slow to be eaten. What in SVW1 and when you're playing Wolf vs Wolf can be considered a big hit (a big animal means a lot of food) now it's considered nothing to care about, as the food it's not the problem in the map, while it is the time lost to eat it is.
I've more proposals on this side:
    - eating speed increased for all animals, a lot.

    - eating speed increased for all animals, but the bigger the animals (and the more their food), the faster they get eaten. this would make again nice to hunt at least big animals as boars etc.

    - fewer animals, higher eating speed and food of them

    - increase animals and eating speed

    - higher eating speed and an animal that can be managed to eat too (and crocos able to eat shark too at least)
this would make hunting again a more possible choise for wolves, that now can only be done, hardly, using surivor (and still, with it too, it's not done because you'll go up very fast as wolf levels, but because when you'll reach a high level, you'll have more HP).
I'm not sure if this will be enough to make wolves still competitive VS sheeps, but it could be a start.
another thing that could help is to increase the running speed for all wolves.

5 - There are still things, like mega lighting towers or wonder that doesn't give food when destroyed and I would vary the food towers give based on the kind of tower they're (wolf killers 75-100 food for example, lighting 100- 150, mega 250-350).

6 - in wolf vs wolf, i would put at the center the yurt, or i would place no yurt at all. Personally i think this would make the game funnier. (or at least have the possibility to chose)

7 - i think had already been discussed, but i would like to remember in wolf vs wolf we would like killing a wolf gives food, and, personally, i would like to see between the wild animals that runs around sheeps too :P

8 - On sheep side, i rememember a lot of players are sad about the fact sheeps can't change tree automatically when getting wood. my proposal is to, after a certain age, abilitate a huge tree (that takes a lot more of space, so that for wolves seeing that or seeing a group of trees it's the same) that produce much more then a single tree, but at the same time less then a normal group of them (for example, a normal tree produces 10 per second, 5 produces 50 per second, this tree occupies as 5 small trees, produces 40 per second and, when destroyed, gives 100 food to wolves). this would automatize a lot for sheeps, having at the same time a price. sheeps will decide if and when to use it.

9 - I personally think that the last upgrade of running speed for wolves is too expensive as well as the upgrade that gives +1 made with super and mega i do not remember the name. personally, i would try costs like 250 and 1000.

10 - I personally think wolves should have more lives, at least 4. or this should be possible to be selected without changing the other settings into the map.

11 - i do not get why the game is set to be played as "fast". this doesn't let us really chose the gaming speed, as, instead of "normal" and "slow" it would become "slow" and "super slow"
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 +Gallas


Группа: System Operator
Дата причоединения 25 de de 2011
Посты:2422
Размещено17 de de 2017 - 22:48
1. First two level never ran and changing this maybe something what people don't was as they used to know this. Also I still don't wanna give permanent running to any level, since it's part of being good or less good wolf.

2. Yeah, that's there since ever 11

3. Those informations are stored in data file and you can check them by using AGE 3.

4. Interesting idea and really risky too. At the moment I won't update anything before the WvsW tourney (March 5th). Need lot of datas about the actually numbers how should change if this will happen.

5. Well yeah, since if you destroy that, you destroy the player and win the game kinda, no point to focus on this.

6. You can make your own rm script for WvsW and remove the yurt. But what you say maybe can work. I'll check if can make the monument into a Yurt or the Yurt into the KotH monument.

7. No. In svsw1 kill reward in WvsW mode was removed for a good reason. This will make the strong wolf stronger and weak to weaker. just making more gasp. As wild sheep yeah it can be made. If sbody will make a WvsW map I'm considering adding some gaia sheep to the mod which can be used there.

8. I have mixed feelings about this. Big tree sounds fun, maybe as a civ or team bonus, but from the other side, it will just make the end game easier, which against my ideas about being strong at end also means you can multitask (same as normal rm games).

9. I won't promise anything about this. I'll check them, but may I keep it as its now.

10. Optional settings are gives fair numbers. Perhaps as a technology maybe can be... or civ/team bonus? I'll play the idea :P


Thanks for feedbacks :)
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 Peterpaiter


Группа: стандартный аккаунт
Дата причоединения 23 de de 2014
Посты:42
Отредактировано17 de de 2017 - 23:45Peterpaiter
personally, i really disagree about point 1.

the game should remove all the automatic actions that are just automatic with no meaning. upgrading the wolf to the first level, more or less to the second as well as eating speed are automatic actions with no meaning. people will never do it before or later, but will just make them as soon as possible to start then playing seriously.

wolves walking it's just useless, and it's not about good wolfing or bad wolfing.
it's about lag makes the game worst, it is easier to have issues running then walking. bugs usually happens when the wolf runs, not when walks, so if the wolf could always "walk" with the running speed, lot of problems in the gameplay could be solved.

2 - that means i can let the wolf start as great wolf too?

3 - make things easy for us. we're not all modders like you, we do not know how to play with game files, tell us the infos please.

4 - a WvW tourny i hardly believe will give you feedbacks about SvW.. :S

5 - sometimes people put trees into the map, not into the base, not only keeps but sometimes WKs and other stuff too

7 - it will make the stronger wolf even stronger if the food given is too much, on the other side, fighting it's a risk, you'll lose time, HP, you'll need to re-heal etc, losing time compared to who doesn't fight. i think this should be rewarded. just do not give too much food if that's the issue, but some food should be given. let's not also forget that in svw1 the maps were much smaller and finding the other wolves was easier.

10 - optional settings changes everything. food in the map, starting resources etc, that's not what i want.

you forgot point 11 :P
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 +Gallas


Группа: System Operator
Дата причоединения 25 de de 2011
Посты:2422
Размещено17 de de 2017 - 23:56
11. cannot be modified by a mod

1. I still say it's better not change something working to a thing what we don't know how will end. I don't wanna update daily coz I just f- it up.

2. yep if sheep also have age up benefits

3. I don't have those datas in a text file, also in svsw1 I had some wolf info at scouts I think.

4. You misunderstood. I said I wont change version till it's not over, so people will play with current and known gameplay.

5. I don't remember seen randomly placed lighting towers unless it's over and just trolling wolf.

7. Yep, risk to make a player out or just focus on eating, that's how you deal with it. It should not be a hunting simulator where you not even see other wolves. Play on smaller map so everyone have a neighbor who take your boar.
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 Peterpaiter


Группа: стандартный аккаунт
Дата причоединения 23 de de 2014
Посты:42
Отредактировано18 de de 2017 - 00:25Peterpaiter
11 - OK.

1 - OK. what about a beta-testing version of the mod too thogh?

2- OK.

3 - OK, but think about it please.

4 - OK.

5 - i did saw them :D together with keeps, wolf killers etc.

7 - players play big maps because of more food into them. when i tried playing with settings, i ended up yes, having more food around the map, but also too many starting resources and lives. could it be possible to manage things separately? if i can already manage before the game at what level the wolf should start at and (could be later) also the number of lives, managing there too the quantity of the food wouldn't be a bad thing
anyway in WvW i want to test some things, for example: no reasons not to not have the map totally explored.
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 +Gallas


Группа: System Operator
Дата причоединения 25 de de 2011
Посты:2422
Размещено18 de de 2017 - 00:40
Kinda can say same like with WvsW map: start learning rm scripting and make own map with own rules and ideas :)
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 Peterpaiter


Группа: стандартный аккаунт
Дата причоединения 23 de de 2014
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Отредактировано19 de de 2017 - 21:09Peterpaiter
i would like to remember that also holes and rifts do not give food.

About the fast speed, i've to disagree too. i think the problem is the game is slow in normal mode, so all setted time are pretty slow. doubling everything should make it possible to be played instead at fast speed at normal speed, so letting players define if they want to play it at double speed, but i get how a pain it would be to change everything.
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 Peterpaiter


Группа: стандартный аккаунт
Дата причоединения 23 de de 2014
Посты:42
Отредактировано20 de de 2017 - 23:52Peterpaiter
I'm working on a little wiki about SvW, checking also the files of the mod and doing a couple of old SvW1, the reasons why wolf is so underpowered now seems to me so clear now.

Wolf costs compared to SvW 1 increased hugely. before, getting a mega wolf, you were collecting 5k and you were having a max super wolf, 3k more and you were having mega and spies. now collecting 5k food you just get a super wolf not upgraded, you need then around other 2k to max it and 3k to get mega(without spies). so if mega before was 8k, now it's 10k (without spies). to upgrade fully the wolf, so, considering in both cases max upgraded wolf as mega wolf, before it was needed 8k, now are needed around 15-16k. Double of the cost(full mega, breakthrow, blast radius, spies, hidden wolf etc).
apart this, happened that now to get important animals such as iron boar and bear, you need no more vet(sometimes even great) wolves, but you need strong elite/super. this too slow them down more.
is this done? no. mega can't be just done just so, but you need to have fully upgraded the wolf, with a jump of cost from a basic super to a mega of 5k(so all the food needed to reach super now is needed for a single upgrade).
The improvements for wolves has been that now it's harder for sheeps not to give wolves food(as stuff destroyed leaves food), more and stronger civ bonuses, more food in the map.

what about sheeps?
by what i know, prices haven't changed so much. sheeps are stronger then wolves from ever. since the start they can make strong keeps, that needs elite/super wolves to be taken down when wolves are vet, will have wolf killers when wolves are elite, will have strong lighting towers and walls when wolves will be elite /super, will have mega lighting towers when wolves will be super and tons of them when wolves, after tons of time, will reach mega. they can wall whatever and everywhere, have stronger team bonuses, will know faster and sooner then wolves, if wolves will know, where yurt is, getting for each 3 special desires(wolves chose 3 each, so a total of 6 for 2 wolves vs 18 for 6 sheeps), they have a huge map to trade into by water that with few keeps around makes it very hard for wolves to control.

Wolves were still more or less OK until they had a strong Watcher civ, a civ that were letting wolves search and run fast, controlling more or less that sheeps couldn't get too strong and before the last upgrades where you (gallas) made even stronger sheeps. Personally i do not dislike the last upgrades, i find them good. i think it's good what they did, increasing the range of tattics that sheeps can do, and decreasing the power of a, could be, OP civ of wolves, on the other side they totally shown the issues of this game.

Here i've some new proposals (Apart the one i proposed before, the eating speed of animals):

- sheeps gets stronger walls but that, on the other side, costs much more and takes much more time to be built. walls, in real life too, should not be something that are easy and fast to be built. they should be strong, very strong, but they should take a lot of time to be built. it would be nice if, until they're not finishde to be built, they do not have much effect either(idk, could be something like, when a special building with low HP low armour is finished to get built, it gets substituted by a strong wall?)
these walls could have stuff like 6, 7K, 10k hp, could be more, but on the other side will take a lot to be built. sheeps will have to consider carefully when, where to built them, if to take damadged down to build more or not. This would also make bases not "instantly" created. I really think sheeps should take more time for their bases and other things. now they just rush everything to get everything maxed and build in very few time a strong base. bases should be built little by little, could be with bonuses like early walls already created will upgrade automatically to the next level of walls, that would instead take muuch longer time to be made.

- yurt near the center or visibile to everyone. it's too much a game changer to not be visible.

- higher cost of sheeps's towers etc. let's make them play a little more with animals and other stuff, not just defining towers as the best choise. I also think that buildings apart walls should not get too much armour as sometimes they do (for example the towers.)

- spies given for free to wolves after a certain time, at least as mega wolves spies should be always present, also because when a wolf with spies leaves, the other wolf can't see no more what walls etc were present. this is an issue.

- lower cost of elite wrags. the most of the times they're useless, no reasons to have their upgrade cost so much(nor themself cost 200 food)

- lighting towers and mega lighting towers should be single target defenses. since when lightings hits a group of things near and not a single target!!??

- some kind of improvement to wolves so that sheeps that starts building whatever kind of defense are not always more or less stronger then wolves. costs are too high for wolves.

- a max number of explosive sheeps should be set, i do not know if it already exists, but wolves can't die as soon as they get into a base, getting targetted by explosive sheeps
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 Vantawhite


Группа: стандартный аккаунт
Дата причоединения 26 de de 2017
Посты:8
Отредактировано21 de de 2017 - 01:32Vantawhite
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 Vantawhite


Группа: стандартный аккаунт
Дата причоединения 26 de de 2017
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Отредактировано21 de de 2017 - 01:32Vantawhite
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 CallmeMaster_


Группа: стандартный аккаунт
Дата причоединения 13 de de 2017
Посты:1
Размещено24 de de 2017 - 04:17
Omg PeterTheWolf, i've played like wolf many times and its to easy win if only hunt hahahaha, maybe its ur level like wolf, that's all.
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 shahji


Группа: стандартный аккаунт
Дата причоединения 2 de de 2009
Посты:24
Размещено26 de de 2017 - 04:38
Hi Gallas,

Maybe after WVW tourney, you can make this change
Sharks/boars should not kill crocs.. I lost 8 of them in a match.. it sets back the wolves too much..
Only sheeps should be able to kill them via towers, tigers etc
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 +Gallas


Группа: System Operator
Дата причоединения 25 de de 2011
Посты:2422
Размещено3 de de 2017 - 22:15
shahji wrote:
Hi Gallas,

Maybe after WVW tourney, you can make this change
Sharks/boars should not kill crocs.. I lost 8 of them in a match.. it sets back the wolves too much..
Only sheeps should be able to kill them via towers, tigers etc
Related to the unit's class. I'll check what can I do.
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 Peterpaiter


Группа: стандартный аккаунт
Дата причоединения 23 de de 2014
Посты:42
Отредактировано25 de de 2017 - 10:50Peterpaiter
So.... my feedback on a lot of things.

I don't like at all this slowing down of the wolf, it's too drastic, it makes total luck getting to elder to a super high level. finding 150 fishes it's pretty hard. you think wolf is too strong on starting levels for sheeps? improve the attack of the town center when garrisoned! that for me is a solution, not doing this.
you want anyway to keep wolf more or less like this? at least make the young wolf stronger vs animals, so that, even if having low los, can hunt a little.

Devastator starting with great wolf and then making it pay 4 TIMES the pup age for me it's just non sense. make the cost be on various levels, not all together. for example, each age costs 100 food more, that would be more meaningful. This is a civ that should be chosen to have a fast start and then it should take something more to go up, if u kill it already at the start, i repeat, it's non-sense.

you made crocos very weaker slowingh them down of 20%. then do something on them too, reduce the cost of them or make the LOS higher (i would do both, but i would at least prefer the LOS).

Wrags SUCKS. so please, reduce the cost of them, improve them, do something on them, but they're just used to eat gold sometimes. for this reason too, berseker civ is totally useless. P.s. don't forget that usually people play in giant maps, and wrags to be moved are a pain.

defender cave los for free... make it the team bonus of berseker or of defender. it's not a so big deal the cave los to be considered a full civ bonus...

Make sheep's animals costs less and less strong. make sheeps need to play a team game to be successful with animals. making some each, it's a strategy, if only one makes them, not good.

DON'T FORGET of the time needed to play a game. I believe a great time for a single game is 1h gametime max, this would make the games fast and even having not too much time you can play one.

What about if hunger tech is a tec that costs gold? if people make a wrag to eat gold around, they'll can get an improvement on eating speed


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